How do we interact with the silence of Saturday in light of what Jesus actually does in both descent and the post-Resurrection appearances.
I say in nice weather. I will speak with everything. And if you came home to wait and be having a place where you feel comfortable, safe, and no code are you saying? Are you in trouble? Let's do that. Hey, what's what Have y'all been? ruminating on? Like, that's what I've been ruminating on. But wondering if there's like some sort of an intersection between eliminating on to me. Um, happiness. And yeah, like I feel like my life is a MySpace is really just experiencing a lot of happiness and joy and like life right now. And so it's kind of like been haunted by this expectation that the other shoe is gonna drop. And I just want to like be able to fully enter into being happy and and having a season of life that's not hard and difficult. And so I've been kind of wrestling with that. I've been thinking about that for about a week now trying to figure out what that is and why I can't like just actually like embrace goodness, you know. You know? These are actually things Oh, and call you about that. I can't go into much detail about it on here. Maybe me how we will one day? Oh, well, one day. Yeah, one day. Yeah. When on your mind, jazzy. I have not been thinking about happiness. I feel like happiness feels so far away. Bonnie, I'm curious about your if you want to share this, your reflections on the other side of Easter weekend from the conversation we had on Friday of just some of the like, anxiety of Canvas, our weightiest holiday, you know, hold all that was happening. I'm curious about if you've thought about it on the other side of the weekend? I haven't really. But yeah, to me, it's basically what I was saying to jazzy last Friday before our Good Friday service, or maybe it was during our Good Friday service was that I've been feeling a low grade amount of anxiety about Easter. Because Easter is in the Christian faith, the holiest day of the year, right. Like it is the day that everything else hangs off like, and I've been a bit worried that if you know that, oftentimes, I feel like Easter is hard. But I don't have any thoughts about it. I'm just kind of giving you a catch up. And I also know that you did a recording with brandy and Shawn about this. We don't. I have no idea what you're talking about. And I have not listened to it. I just thought what on was it on it live? I'm not sure what it was on. It was on a replay. We did. Yeah. I was just saying that. I'm nervous about it. But I'm yeah, I don't I don't know what you all talk about. But I don't have any more thoughts on it. I was just mainly nervous about special elections Sunday, because Sunday, Easter Sunday oftentimes feels more like a pretend performance where we need to act out what is central to Christian faith, but it's so out of touch with reality every year, but especially this year, and these two months, it would feel really devastating for fake if we just performed another kind of cheap Resurrection Sunday. Because obviously, things are not well, so that was my anxiety. I think our church handle that super well on Sunday, but I have no further thoughts since then. About You know, Sunday. Resurrection Sunday. Yeah. Yeah. It is. It is like kind of the it's interesting thinking about it from what I was trying to like. Do bring to the table because I even feel guilt. Like a friend of mine texted me today about something that was really difficult happening in their life. And so I feel like I have all of these reasons why it's selfish to be in a state of like gladness and peace, because there's so much ish hitting the fan right now that it feels hard to enjoy it sometimes like it feels selfish. And so I'm like wrestling with all of these things. Like I haven't been watching the trial. I actually haven't been watching the news for a minute just because I I needed a break from everything. But I think navigating, navigating that and navigating all the things that are happening and and how invested should I be? And it doesn't mean I'm not invested if I'm taking a break, and you know, all the things that people wrestle with the basic stuff has been kind of what is kind of like circling the space I'm in right now to some. It's an interesting time. It doesn't feel like Easter. It hasn't felt like Easter for five years, at least for me. So. Yeah. Wow. I mean, I'm actually none of the holidays. Like I mean, I guess I just I mean brandies. Advent was a really good series. But other than that, like, I don't know what it is. It's just like someone has stolen the like, or whatever the system is has stolen, like the actual good stuff out of these holidays. For me, I think. So. Jessie, do you have thoughts about Easter? There are some things that came up for me a little bit in the morning in the morning after event that we had Kemmler. I think I was sitting with the there's a question around like, like, present help, like Jesus says, present help and bringing up these images of the Mary's and not just them, like the tomb and encountering Jesus. But actually like when they ran to tell the news. And were like, it was like an image that showed the disciples in different places. Some of them were just like, on the ground morning, and like weeping, and others were kind of doing their own thing. And it was kind of a question of, like, Where are you in this picture? Are you the one trying to proclaim the good news, but like, people are unable to hear it? Are you? Are you the one who was unable to hear it? You know, it's kind of that thing and but there was, there was a question he had around like, how is how is Jesus, our president help or something like that, and I was really sitting with both the words present and help a lot. And asking questions around what those things mean for Jesus. Like, where was Jesus's present help? And how is Jesus one who like always shows up and keeps showing up, even when, like help does not show up for Jesus. But that's the only thing I kind of was thinking about, if like, how the resurrection. And maybe this is a very, like, a very enneagram to reflection, but I felt like I was thinking about the resurrection is like dang Jesus, like, all these folks abandon you and all this stuff. And you still showed up for them, because you still love them. And like, nothing can stop you from showing up for your people. Yeah. And I was thinking about some of that. And I wrote a whole letter to Jesus about it, but nothing. Boy, you just said you wrote a whole letter to Jesus about your life. It's nothing too big. Yeah, practicing empathy with Jesus is one of my most important spiritual practices. I know that sounds like very important. It's not no big deal. Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, run it back. Practicing empathy is a spiritual about this. I think it is super important. And I think it is something that people do. Well, that's, that's true, I think. So what I said was, practicing empathy with Jesus has become one of the most important spiritual practices. For me, one big chunk of that is because it opens up for me to practice empathy toward myself in ways that are needed that I don't know how to do otherwise. But also it just transforms the ways that I interact with both Jesus's humanity and Divinity. And yeah, and then it actually like, I think some people, they're like, Oh, Jesus has empathy with me, helps me and I'm like, Oh, yeah, but I'm not able to see that until I empathize with Jesus. And part of it started from like, I think they're, they're like two specific moments. I really remember the First was like, it was the first time I ever went to a Catholic mass for Good Friday at old St. Pat's in Chicago, Barney, which Barney got us on. Um, I, it was the year that I was first diagnosed with, like, situational depression and anxiety. And I was having a really, really hard time, just in life. And I went, and I remember for some reason, then, Friday service, I don't know, if I wasn't sitting with I don't remember exactly what the context was. But I was like, kind of sitting by myself that that year, I don't know why. But, um, and I remember, like them telling the passion story. And for the kind of first time consciously, I started weeping for like, What, really? What was it that like Jesus was experiencing? What was it that Jesus was feeling? What was the abandonment, Jesus was feeling? The isolation that Jesus was feeling? What was the like, physical, like the pain in Jesus's body? Did Jesus like, you know, like, you know, we know Jesus like cries out to his father, one of the things he wanted to say to his mother, you know, like, and his mother was there, he does say things to her, but what else did he want to say, you know, like, Did Jesus sing while he was on the cross? Like, what what were the ways that he may be like, self soothe himself while he was there, because he was in a body, you know, so I just, I remember, like, really sitting in that just weeping. And then it was the first time I ever practiced the veneration of the cross. And so when I know that the cross, I really was able to imagine like, what would it have been like to really like, be his mother and just want to hold him or like, be there and like, be able to like, just I don't know. So that's kind of where I think it started to open up for me. And that was like, maybe like four years ago. And then I last spring, I was in a biblio drama class. And we were sitting with the passage of Jesus walking to the cross and Simon of serene, being made to carry the cross for him and Jesus encountering the women and saying, Do not weep for me. And in this biblio drama class, we were doing this technique called an empty chair technique, which is used in some like psychotherapy and other things, but it's a bit of drama technique, where there's an empty chair, people sit in it, and they become the character and you can dialogue with them. And there was, there were two empty chairs was like Jesus and the women. And you know, Jesus says, this, Do not weep for me and, and one of my classmates, who was sitting in the place of the women said, I'm gonna weep for you, Jesus, I'm sorry, but no, I'm gonna weep for you because somebody has to weep for you. And I like lost something broke in me and our whole class, because of the audacity to speak back to Jesus and say, Actually, I will weep for you, I will feel for you, this will no longer be and unnoticed suffering, that you just do for the world without anyone caring about the cost that it is to you. And the realities of that the ways that I like now have been able to, like theologically understand that with like a womanist. lens, right, and all of the like, forced surrogacy of like black women and the cost to our bodies, and the being the collateral damage for so many realities of institutional change, or institutional pushes, and no one like feeling like like us even having within us to say, Do not weep for me because we got to keep pushing to keep going. And who is going to stop and say no, for you, I actually you just need to be held. And some of the most important moments for me as well reflect that back to me. And to be able to reflect that back to Jesus creates a whole different dynamic for me and my faith journey. Hmm. Yeah. Me too jazzy. What were you we were you were catching too nice up to speed with that, but you were saying, having empathy for Jesus this year? Well, it's not that it's, it's not that there's a different dynamic. I think I'm just using language of, of just like Jesus always showing up. For us. I think that there's like a, there's something in you know, like, there is a real question we're asking right now of like, Where's God, and what is present help. And I don't know. I don't know if to hear that. It feels like it would be God, but in some ways, I'm like, Damn, but Jesus was also asking, Where was his president help. And I think I was I started sitting with, like, help just didn't show up help was absent, you know, like, and that's what we're feeling is like absent help. Like it's like us that it's coming to us that it's already come but it feels very absent. And did Jesus feel that also, you know, um, so I think that was just one way I was like interacting with that and just like asking Jesus of like, how did you feel about help not showing up? Like, you know, like, how did you deal with that? And I think it's like easier, it's easy to like, brush that aside and say like, Oh yeah, but he was like resin on the third day. And it's like, but that's beyond. That's to me beyond a miracle because it's not like Jesus was just sick. And then was risen, it was like, but he had to experience the full brutalization of body. Yeah, no one helping him. And just like unyielding violence against his body, and his being and his character, and all those things, and no one helping him. And I feel like I've kind of what we're experiencing is I'm human violence, no one's coming. And so even if we have knowledge of the resurrection of Jesus did, that doesn't change that no one helped him. Write my thoughts. I haven't visited that in a long time. But I remember when it hit me that he needed help to carry the cross and how the picture of Jesus's the crucifixion everything was almost still kind of like it didn't faze him, like the way that it's the way that the way that it was told to me or presented to me, it was like, yeah, it was hard. But he rose, you know, it was just, it was just always more majoring on the victory, victory. And the, the fact that he just powered through even though he didn't want to, and then I was reading about Simon. And I just started remembering like, or they started to hit me that like, he needed help. Like, they pull Simon out of the crowd, and we're, like, help him with this. So it's almost like, even having an image that like he's struggling so hard that a Roman soldier would pick another person out of a crowd, say help. What he could not have looked as strong as is portrayed to us in some of these, like, messages that we hear, like, the very idea that someone who you would think would be the least compassionate, who was actually in the process of murdering this person. Yeah, yeah. Like aiding and abetting, and says he needs help. So that to me was really I think that for me, for season was really like, honestly, I didn't want to think about it. I didn't want to think about Jesus like that. Um, and I don't know why. But what does it mean if Jesus is like me in that things are overwhelming? And what does it mean if Jesus like me in that sometimes, like, I like really need help? I can't go any further. So I don't know it's like, in that way, like his his his Simon's, you know, small role in this really magnificent event, like is that present help and, like we've always thought like, present helped me it's like a divine wind comes and lifts my sails were rise up on wings like an eagle, or it's like the Adi, the oddity of a Roman soldier pulling an African out of a crowd and saying, help this Jewish guy carry across. But you just it's feels very, like layers to me, you know? And I have actually haven't revisited that, that. I haven't revisited that image in a minute. You just brought that back up for me? Oh, it's such an interesting, so many layers, because Simon didn't offer to help was made to help. What would have been going through Simon's head like, because there's one translation or one gospel that says also that his children were there with him? So So what would it have been like also for Simon, this African man to be told that he needs to carry this torture device for this Jewish man he does not know. And there's other criminals or they're quote criminals, right? others who are named as criminals, they're who we know that that's what you know, it's used for like, what is the fear Simon was also feeling but still need it still ended up being helped, you know, like, I think that there's also those layers of like, what was Going through his head. I mean, I think even think sorry, Barney, I really want to hear what you have to say because you always drop the bombs. But I one last thing, and then I want to hear from Barney. But like, I was thinking about the even the societal. The representation that you see in that where I like to service, the Empire tells the African like, that he has to carry this thing to, and actually forces him to do so. It just feels to me like even what kind of like, you know, ethnic or cultural representation is even happening in that I hadn't even ever really put it that way till tonight, but it's just, it's, it's amazing to me how much stuff you can still lift out of these stories? Yeah, I think I am, I don't have much to say, I'm really curious, I think I'm grateful for how we continue to grow. And I was reading something last night, it's a preface to this futuristic book. And the author talks about how writing fiction is really hard. Because you have to, especially when you're writing futuristic sci fi, you have to figure out you, you recognize that your reader is bringing in with them baggage. And so you have to create kind of an empty house for them to furnish with what they already know. So it's a really interesting thing, you know, and that we keep, even as we continue to grow, we bring different things to a story that we encounter. And we see things like, what does it mean that the Roman Empire was able to draft an African body to bear a cross with a Palestinian Jewish man. And that that is like a really important part of our story that somehow we've received, but we never thought about before. But as we grow older, we like right, like, think about and see these things in the story. So I just I'm, I think it's, it's always I'm excited about continuing to see more as we continue to grow. And notice more of those layers and dynamics, because we've lived more life, you know, so. So that's one thing. I don't have much to add there. I think that the question that I'm asking a lot about on this side of Easter is what happens between the death and the resurrection. And because what we get is a lot of silence. And I think we try to make meaning on that silence. I've seen different communities that I've been a part of make meaning of that silence in different ways that has been helpful and helpful, you know, you know, the idea of the silence of Holy Saturday, right, like sitting in that. And that's been helpful to me in different seasons. But what I I've been wondering about is how we infuse that silence with our own kind of meaning. And I wonder if we important to that silence, like, suddenly Jesus can shed his body shed his meekness, and now he can, like plunder hell, like, like, I'm just curious about whether we import like a conquering violent God, who finally can lay aside his body and his ethics. And now like, dive into how, and like pillage, you know, and then bursts forth from the grave and victory. Because that's the language we use, right, like we first fourth, like, out of the grave, we conquered death. And like, it is now finally that and I think that, you know, what we talked about on our last episode was about kind of the the violence of the apocalypse. And the ways that we imagine Yes, from Revelation, and from apocalyptic texts of very, very violent conquering Jesus, who comes back with a sword coming out of his mouth to like slay half of humanity, or, you know, like, that's what's in Revelation. And we like different communities interpret that very differently. But I'm just curious about the silence of Saturday. Because I don't think I've been in many spaces that have talked about it, but I recognize that in my own imagination, I kind of imagined that that's what's happening under the ground is that Jesus, finally, like, you know, I mean, I watched a lot of anime, you know, and I watched, you know, we read a lot, but it's like, all these ninja enemies that like, what, what is Jesus? But my question is like, Yeah, what is Jesus doing in his dissent? And because I think that that enemy some of how we live in our descent, like, do we, when we think about present health, like, how do we have to live in our descent? Do we need to continue to fight? Does Jesus fight in his death? Or is he just like, they're like, what happens? I don't know. So I have more of a question than a thought. But I think it's More of a question of what has always been existing for me, which is that Jesus does some mysterious cosmic warfare in binding the strong man and maybe killing the Satan or the devil, I don't know. But I have not been in a Christian space that has talked about what actually happens. But I think we just fill it with all the stories that we know of, like, good conquering evil. You over there flipping, flipping the Bible, it was trying to think of which, which, which church it was, because when you were talking about what is Jesus doing in his dead, there's a one of the churches he's talking to, he says, Behold, I am the one who was dead and is now alive. And I hadn't, that scripture just popped in my head, because it's like, he makes a point to emphasize I was dead. Um, and I feel like, like, you're saying, Bernie, we always skip to the victory, right? Like, he's, he's alive. I mean, most of the songs about that. I've never liked Curtis song about Jesus just being dead, you know, just across. I'm trying to remember which church it is. But it's the church, he's going to give the keys to think that it might be Philadelphia. You know, I used to read this all the time. In a minute, yes. Smyrna says to the angel in the church of Smyrna, right. These are the words of Him who is the first and the last, who died, and came to life again. And he says, and this is what I think is the word. For us to jazzy like in thinking about what you were talking about is like, I know your afflictions in your poverty, but you are rich. And I know the slander of those who say they are Jews and are not, but they are an actual synagogue of Satan. Do not be afraid of what you're about to suffer, I tell you, the devil will put some of you in prison to test you. And you will suffer persecution, and he says for 10 days, but he says Be faithful even to the point of death. And I will give you life as your Victor's crown. So the crown is not like this, you know, coming to, you know, take over this kingdom, it's like, life is the crown, the crown is life. And then the spirit spirit breaks in and said, and she says, the one who is victorious will not be hurt at all by the second day. So I just feel like there's something to be said for maybe maybe we should have spent some more time in this silence to see what it was that we could be offering people at a time like this, because it feels to me, we just don't have anything to offer. I know your afflictions in your poverty. And I know the slender like, of those who say they love God. And in being able to think about that, and think about the helplessness of like, what it must have felt like to like, you know, see George Floyd, for instance, and know this guy needs help somebody help this man. And to know that, like, at some point during this, you know, Via Dolorosa at some point, it was very apparent that somebody needed to help this man. And this man is God, like, um, it just feels very, like, we don't even have a container for that. But I just feel like I was not equipped with a container for a guy who really does know affliction and poverty, like for real, you know, it's missing. Yeah, it's, it's that passage, I mean, Revelation is just so hard, because revelation is so it's so violent in so many ways. And especially when it has historically been interpreted, interpreted by communities who have power and then passed on. I get nervous, really nervous, right? Like, we know that even that specific passage that you read, has historically been interpreted to be like, very anti Jewish, has, like, justified genocide, of like Jewish peoples. And it's like the trench in power reads passages like revelate, like, especially from Revelation, where it can then justify like, all sorts of violence and also project into like, project into the term victory, all sorts of imaginations about what it means to persevere and what it means to be victorious. And what it means to come out on top because our global history is that you know, you win by like violence you win by like military might Yeah, and yet, yeah, so, you know, it is interesting that it is to a community that really has suffered that that is who the word is to. And I think it's communities who do suffer, that should interpret that word with the most like authority and wield it with the most authority, rather than those who have had wealth, or strength to be able to say, Oh, this is what it means to persevere. And therefore, you should suffer in XYZ ways, you know. And so I feel like a lot of that is where I'm like, oh, from community communities, we have received the interpretation of communities who have economic power, military power, and publishing power. Yes. And they have told us how we should interpret these passages. But they're exactly the wrong people who should tell us how to interpret these passages. And for me, now, it's like trying to figure out like, yeah, like, just going back to, like, Holy Saturday, the silence that happens on Saturday? Is Jesus like riding in and like literally slaying demons with a sword? Or is there something else that's happening? Do we suspend? are, you know, who Jesus has revealed cod to be throughout his life? Or? I don't know. I don't know that. That's something that I'm just asking. The and I'm curious about, and we'll think about it more, because I do think it it, it has a lot of implications for how we talk about and how we think about life and how we think about what should What are we justified to do when we are living a living death? You know, do we then just say like, Well, you know, we have to be victorious somehow. So that's, that's, that's one of the questions that I'm asking about Saturday, about the silence of Saturday and the grave and how we infuse it with kind of violent imaginations. The question that you asked earlier, jazzy about the morning after, and where's our present help is really the one that I've been feeling the most. And I've been sitting in the disciples on the road to him as at the end of the Gospel of Luke, where they were Jesus appears to them, but they don't recognize it. And he can't, they can't see. And he asked them, like, what's wrong? And they're like, you don't know. And you? Are you the only person that never hurt? and feeling like, you know, he invites him to talk about, like, what's going on? And then they say, like, we had hoped, this would have been the Messiah, like that this way, but our leaders like crucify this person, and we were wrong. And then Jesus, like, teaches them from the scriptures about like, does this have to happen, but they still don't recognize him? Until they sit down for a meal together. And Jesus breaks bread. And so I feel similar molarities of like Tommy's what you were talking about, like, yeah, maybe the present help comes in unexpected ways of the Roman power saying to an African man, like stand with this Palestinian, and help bear up under him. Like, that's the present health. But then also wondering, that is a question that I'm asking too, is like, I feel a lot like the disciples on the road to me is where I'm like, I'm not sure. I'm not sure where there is any hope. But then after the meal, they're like, oh, our hearts were burning within us. But we just couldn't recognize we couldn't, we couldn't see the help that was with us. And only recognized it when he asked us to sit and just fed us. And then suddenly were recognized, but then he was gone. And it just feels so different from what we imagined of like, what does the present health look like post resurrection, I guess Jesus just drops in for a meal. And then he's gone. I mean, which is interesting, because if you look at the different Gospel accounts, like, you know, john has this account of them eating with Jesus also, right? We're like, they're fishing and Jesus comes up and once again, they don't recognize him. And he's like, yo, you know, which I'll catch him that a lot you know, and they end up like, bringing all these fish things I got y'all ready made a fire for y'all. Let's eat you know, and, and it's also like this not recognizing Jesus again, but then over this meal over this communing together, is that they are reconnected with Jesus. It's not like in post resurrection. Jesus doesn't do anything. Okay, besides coming out of the grave, which is miraculous, or beyond miraculous. But besides that, Jesus doesn't do very miraculous things. And what we have is accounts of him being fed and feeding and doing very, very well. ordinary human things instead of doubt and feelings, what do you say? I said, I'm attempting to Thomas's feelings and doubts, and we're, you know, like, but they're, they're very like human and very kind of like maternal things, honestly. Yeah, like, Yes, because he also says, Go and tell my disciples and Peter, it's like, he wants to make sure that the shame, whatever kind of shame that Peter is experiencing, like, go and involve him in this like, go find Peter and tell him that I'm here. And so it was. So it was so amazing for him to say, Go tell my disciples and Peter, it was almost like he was actually speaking to, I want everybody. And that does it feels very maternal. To me. That the inclusivity of it, you know what I'm saying? Yeah, I, I'm wrestling with the question of, I think I'm what I'm holding, you know, Jazzy, in what you said, of like, Where is our present help? Well, while it was the help that we need, and some of why Easter is oftentimes, so like dissonant is because we drum up all of this, you know, pomp and circumstance for an Easter Sunday, which is fine, but it is pretty like incommensurate, commensurate with like Jesus's post resurrection, pre ascension, kind of just like life and ministry, which is marked by very, very small, like gatherings. He doesn't go to a whole lot of people. And mainly it's around tables with food. And I'm wondering, like, what kind of pressure should that post resurrection, pre Ascension life actually apply to our understanding of the resurrection? And what resurrection power is. And that's, you know, that's where I feel like when you start off with a Genesis three kind of meta narrative of the Gospels, or sorry, the whole you know, of redemption history of like, Eden, and like fallenness I think it leads us necessarily to like, Good Friday being the most important thing, like the crucifixion being the most important thing. But I think if we start with a Genesis one story, which is what we have, I think, more importantly, is like, we should be emphasizing Monday, Thursday, where Jesus washes washes his beloved like hands and, and feeds them a meal, and then like, after resurrection, where he continues to feed. And so it's, I think it's just like, our idea of resurrection power resurrection. Victory needs to be like, investigated, I think. Yes. Yeah. How many you know where that Jesus came from? I'm just thinking about the last week of his life, and thinking about how it's put to us. Hmm, where are they getting that from? I mean, it is it looks like Jesus is like superhuman Marvel comic man. Yeah. He comes on a donkey. He hangs out with kids, like all his friends leave. He does a horrific death. Like and then he doesn't even he doesn't even flex. He just goes in his food with with the whim like in some accounts, it's like the women find them and they think he's a gardener. They think he's a farmer. And it's like, you get all these images of Jesus post resurrection that are not like Thor, the God of hammer, or the goddess hammers and lightning hit. I was like, you just get Jesus, the gardener. And Jesus. The chef is beautiful. Where did that picture come from? That's a good question. To me. It's like where did that picture come from? of like, Yeah, I don't know. Even even the language of bursting forth. from the ground up. And we love seeing that. everybody's hands shoot up. Nobody sings about and he was just dead dead then. Then he was breaking bread, bread, bread. Ours